On Friday Anxiety Maven posted a comment in my Foo Fighters post regarding another post with which she took issue. I responded but then decided to take down both my response and her original comment for several reasons which I’m not going to get into here. However after sitting with her comments this weekend I’ve decided to address them in this post.
I’m not looking to start a debate just address what I consider to be her legitimate points as well as those I feel are inaccurate and then move on to more interesting subjects. I don’t really want to debate this issue any further.
So here we go.
firstly, the idea that the rebbe is moshiach is halachically valid (please consider the wording carefully). the idea that jesus is moshiach is not. if you don’t agree with the rebbe being the messiah, that’s ok, but it’s still a halachically valid opinion.
I personally don’t buy any of the above but I’m certainly not qualified to disprove it. Having said that I believe that the Rebbe is dead and therefore is out of the running for moshiach status but what do I know. Secondly because I don’t view halachick law as binding, it just seems irrelevant to me to try and distinguish between the Rebbe and Jesus in the way that you have.
Incidentally I’m not alone in my halachick thinking because the Reform movement also does not except halachick law as binding. Feel free to disagree but just don’t say that it’s, just me and Jesus who feel this way because that isn’t the case.
secondly; regarding the author of the article: i don’t agree with any jew hurting another jew for differences of opinion like that. that is wrong.
I’m glad that you feel this way.
thirdly, i take great umbrage in your comments about chabad. i disagree with your terms that “chabad undermines interdenominational community building.” the rebbe himself once crossed out wording on a shliach’s flyer, a flyer that read “chabad is open to orthodox, conservative, and reform jews.” the rebbe said this is already creating divisions between yidden. that said, chabad desires to create jewish community/continuity in the deepest, truest of ways.
Oh where do I start because the above is just wrong in so many ways.
First let’s look at your comment regarding crossing out wording on fliers. It’s nice on the surface but it doesn’t take a lot thinking to figure out that it doesn’t mean much. I agree with you that Chabad is open to everyone no matter what denomination they are from. But it’s disingenuous to suggest this means that they equally accept everyone from those denominations as being Jewish. I’m a Reform Jew by choice so would I be counted as a Jew within a Chabad community? I’m quite confident that the answer to that question is no. How about somebody who is patrilineally Jewish, would they count as Jewish? Again I really don’t think so. And I am just scratching the surface regarding the subtle forms of discrimination that are contained within Chabad. Don’t get me wrong Chabad is entitled to feel the way they feel and from their perspective I and many others probably are NOT Jewish. However it is still discrimination nonetheless even if it’s justified from your point of view.
Oh yes in the deepest and truest (would that be like authentic?) ways.
Next lets look at attempts to interfere with the larger Jewish community.
Example 1 Montréal Mikva
Example 2 Chabad at Princeton
Maybe these claims are false (not that I believe they are) but they aren’t my claims and they certainly are enough in my opinion to warrant both concern and comment.
Last but not least and actually the most personally relevant one to this discussion. If I remember correctly you actually e-mailed my fiancé during the early stages of our relationship questioning her choices about me and I call that interference. I can only conclude that it was rooted in a bias against Reform Judaism and its converts.
This is a clear example of how people who believe in an authentic Judaism can and do engage in interference even if they don’t realize it. She’s not your sister, she’s not your friend and she’s not a member of your community. Yet you still felt it was appropriate to stick your nose in other people’s business and it certainly makes your opinion less relevant to anything I say, believe or do.
I found your behavior despicable (and even antagonizing) yet I chose not to call you on it because I understood where you are coming from. But if you’re going to come onto my blog and begin criticizing me for offending your sensibilities, I’m certainly going to bring it up.
your statement that chabad “claims” to be “true and authentic” judiasm, including “their messianic beliefs” is antagonizing, whether purposely or not.
Although from my perspective it is an accurate statement you’re right it’s antagonizing and therefore I removed some of it from the post.
chabad is authentic, and jews believing that their rebbe is moshiach is written about in the gemora.why don’t other chassidim hold that their rebbe is moshiach…? it’s certainly valid and it’s certainly authentic (check out the rambam for more on this topic).
Here in lies the problem at least from my point of view. You see I believe that academic scholarship both biblical and historical disproves any notion of a singular authentic form of Judaism. I and many others just don’t believe in it. I therefore believe that authenticity claims such as the ones made by Chabad are false becuse theres is no one authentic Judaism. Again you are free to believe what you like on the subject and my worldview is big enough to allow room for both of us but it doesn’t mean I’m going to allow myself to be bound by your views of what is authentic and what is not. Please remember this is not just me who feels this way but also The Reform, Reconstructionist and to a lesser degree Conservative movements do as well.
i think you’ve got some deep-seated stuff about the “box thinking it’s car” business. maybe you think if you can knock down chabad, that validates your own judaism? i’m just putting it out there.
Ouch, that was a rather rough poke. There was a time when you may have been right but not anymore. Chabad has painted itself into irrelevance at least to me that is. Don’t get me wrong there are things I like about Chabad and I don’t even mind participating in the Chabad community in Los Angeles. They just don’t have a monopoly on the truth and so I am way beyond defining myself by their opinions.
Having said that as a progressive and educated human being who believes in social justice and equality. Of course I’m going to poke at Chabad when I see them as being dishonest or homophobic, sexist or ehtnocentrically bigoted. Like it or not I’m allowed to be that way and if you don’t like it you are certainly free to avoid the topic with me. That should be pretty easy to do because I don’t believe I’ve ever gone on your blog and badmouthed Chabad, you or your views. In fact I don’t think I’ve ever badmouthed Chabad on anyone else’s blog at all. Come to think of it the few times I have discussed Chabad on other blogs I’ve actually been sticking up for them. But this is my blog and if I want to say something on it I’m certainly going to.
i’m not saying chabad is perfect, we’ve got issues (including dissonance amongst ourselves). that’s not news. nonetheless, i think your approach is vitriolic, though you claim to be respectful.
I’m sorry to read that things aren’t perfect but I’m glad that you can acknowledge it. As for my being vitriolic I believe I’ve already addressed that issue.
regarding considering yourself a post-halachic jew, well, i know somebody who considered himself the same: jesus..
Well speaking of vitriolic this doesn’t read as very kind to me.
Either your ignorant or just being dismissive to make your point and either way it doesn’t really matter because it’s easy enough to set the record straight.
Although the term post-halachick maybe my term and it may even not be a very accurate term the sentiment behind it is certainly not mine alone. Reform, Reconstructionist and again depending who you ask the conservative movement are all in different ways part of the same club.
p.s. my anti-spam word is “santa.” oy, the irony.
Ha ha!
You are welcome to continue reading and commenting on posts but you need to understand I’m a Reform Jew who believes in Reform values. I am sure that this will upon occasion rub you the wrong way but it’s to be expected.
Also your points have been taken regarding the harshness of some of my criticisms and I will do my best in the future not to be unnecessarily inflammatory. I should be able to express my concerns in a fashion that is respectful and I will continue to build up my abilities in this department.
Be Well.
Listen to this podcast
Well it’s kind of hard for me to believe but JewsByChoice.org has been up and running for over a month now and it’s been a blast! We have a really awesome group of people blogging some great stuff that has generated some intelligent discussion. I for one am extremely pleased with everything. We are now well over 21,000 words and have (as of today) 29 posts and181 comments which in my opinion is very impressive considering none of us are superstar Jews. In terms of visits we hit well over close to 1400 in our first month and I expect are going to break the 1500 mark either later today or tomorrow (but remember no blogging on Shabbos! LOL). Sure this might be small potatoes compared to some of the other big blogs but it’s far beyond what I expected in our first month and as I previously mentioned I’m extremely happy about it.
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