Ah yes, my Un-Jewishness rears its ugly head, yet again.
Uncategorized May 16th, 2006
I was going to post a little bit more about the whole Buddhist/JewBu origins thing but I just got off the phone and although I’m not upset I’m certainly less than impressed with the conversation.
Several weeks ago I came across www.jnet.org a web site for the Jnet – Jewish Learning Network, basically, an organization with the goal of increasing (what I would call) Jewish literacy by pairing up, a student with a volunteer tutor. Now I have to take some responsibility for misunderstanding things and not taking the time to read all of the fine print. When I came across this site I thought great and if my memory serves me correctly I found this organization via JewSchool (a site which I really enjoy and whose philosophy I believe to be in line with my own) so I automatically assumed that Jnet was probably a safe bet for me ” a converting Reform Jew”.
However, maybe not so!
Last night I was on the phone with Tamara when I sent her the link via IM telling her that I was planning on calling them today to follow up on a voicemail message they had left me. She went and had a look and basically said “by the way did you know that these guys are Chabad?” to which I replied, nope didn’t have a clue. Now I don’t have a problem with Chabbad per se but I immediately realized that these guys probably weren’t going to ever consider me a legitimate Jew, and I’m not going to lie that did bummed me out a little bit because I thought what a great opportunity.
Oh, let me tell you more about how it works basically what these guys do is they interview you find out what your level of understanding and interests are and then they pair you up with an appropriate tutor for a half hour a week telephone conversation. I mean, there may be more to it, in that there may be some sneaky Chabad conspiracy, involving Kabbalah commandos in mitzvah tanks, but I don’t really believe that to be the case. To be honest, I was really excited about the possibility and although it was a misunderstanding on my part, I thought it was more about General Jewish culture and religion may be something put on by an organization inside of Israel promoting cultural and religious literacy among Jews in the Diaspora. So I of course figured, what a great way to supplement the learning I’m already doing.
Anyhow so back to the story.
First off, they had a hard time locating my file in their database (that’s right, they now have a file on me) but once that was located he began to ask me some questions to which I tried to answer as honestly as I could. From the earliest opportunity available I disclosed my Reformness and that I didn’t realize that they were a Chabad organization and that I thought it may not be the best fit. I went on to tell him that it wasn’t that I felt it was a bad fit for me, but rather I suspected that most people involved in their organization most likely would be unable to consider me an actual Jew, and so why would they want to volunteer their time with a goy boy like me.
He of course asked me the two traditionally important questions, “So you’re telling me your mother isn’t Jewish?” and “Are you looking to pursue an Orthodox conversion?”, and to both I replied nay, nay. You know, I’ve gotta give this guy on the phone credit for at least being upfront and honest with me, not to mention that he was delicate with his choice of words. He was really good at personally not discrediting my conversion or refuting my status as a legitimate Jew, instead opting to focus on how it may be difficult to find a volunteer willing to work with somebody who they didn’t consider to be a Jew.
He seemed a little pushy and abrupt, but nonetheless seemed committed to taking all of the relevant information down and doing a thorough and complete intake process. He also didn’t dismiss what I suppose was my application flat out, and said that although it may take some time, he would try to find somebody just that he was going to have to be honest about my origins and who I was. Although I personally feel that he was more interested in not pissing off a volunteer rather than protecting me I do think he tried his best to be as kind and accommodating as possible, considering he’s an Orthodox Jew.
I of course being the ultimate polite Canadian made all the appropriate apologies for him, so I suppose he really didn’t have much work to do. I told him that I respected the fact that some people may have difficulty considering me a Jew and that I was not looking to argue and debate such things with anybody. He did let out what I considered to be a slip where it seemed to make it clear that he felt that this was not an agree to disagree sort of thing but rather, a Chabad is right and you’re wrong sort of thing, at least it seemed to be in a roundabout sort of way.
Now I realize that I inadvertently went around poking somewhere, maybe I shouldn’t have as a reform convert, but it did highlight a couple of things to me yet again. I need to assert myself in terms of the fact that I am a Jew and I consider myself to be a Jew. Also that I am a Reform Jew (and that’s by choice) so I need to find places to express my Jewishness that will respect me and who I am. It also reinforced my belief that I deserve better than to participate in environments and situations that at best are going to tolerate me and at worst are going to deny my identity and possibly shun me.
I think I’ve just made a decision that I’m not going to be participating in things and or places that ultimately will not accept me as I am now. I’ve come too far, made too many sacrifices, and overcome too many obstacles to allow other people to place unnecessary ones before me. It’s a question of emancipation, it’s a question of dignity, and it’s a question of personal responsibility to stand up for myself and carve out a place in this world that I can call home. I actually see it as dangerous both spiritually and psychologically to put myself in positions and places that undermine my accomplishments and I suppose the bottom line is this telephone conversation today highlighted that I may very well not have any legitimate place studying in a Chabad environment.
Okay well I suppose I’ve rambled on long enough and so I will say, ciao for now.
Listen to this podcast
May 16th, 2006 at 1:26 pm
Hmmm, sounds like, although frustrating, you rekindled some clarity on the topic. Of course, based on your’s and my previous talks on the subject, I understand.
I understand that being in a place where one does not feel they are respected is hard and frankly, I too wouldn’t want to put myself in that predicament.
I really do love the little Jewish community that I am a part of. Although my rabbi and style of shul is Chabad, the community is far from Chasidic or black hat, with a handful of modern ortho, conservative, reform, people seeking, and some pre-conversion folk. And so my point? The community aspect I love. Everyone is respected and welcome. Do I agree with all basic principles of the bigger “group”, nope. Do I practice Judaism by all the same laws and customs, nope. Am I lectured or pushed? Nope. And so…I hope that, although you may not want a “home” with an orthodox shul, that you can see the positive pieces too. And, I think you do because we’ve discussed such things. Oh, and for the record, my friend “A” hasn’t called me again.
I think she finally “gets” where I was coming from.
TTYS
May 16th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
LOL Tamara, I’m glad your friend hasn’t called back, I guess she gave up on you when she found out you had tattoos she figured you are a lost cause.
I’m just kidding of course, or am I?
I think, it’s hard, probably for someone like you to really understand (please don’t take that the wrong way) because regardless of your level of observance you my dear are a Jew. So of course the way they treat you or better put the way they think about you is always going to be softer and kinder than such people would think about me.
You are a Jew, you are worth investing time in, what I really consider to be more about ” saving” but how would I fit into such a thing.
Anyhow, I’m not trying to argue the point with you but I do think it’s pretty hard for you to walk in my shoes on this one.
I mean think about your last comment on the exam part five post. You were noticing how these are questions you don’t even think about, and although I think you view this fact, as one of missed opportunity for you, it is rather telling.
I mean, here are questions you haven’t thought about until I brought them up in my post, but you are still considered a Jew, regardless of your level of knowledge, understanding, or observance. I mean so much so that people have tried to caution you about dating somebody like me (holy cow did I just refer to us as dating?), and all of this is considered kosher behavior.
This is certainly not me feeling sorry for myself but rather just trying to provide some counterbalance to your comments about how you are treated by Chabad and that from my point of view in many ways it’s like trying to compare apples and oranges.
Anyhow, I’m okay with who I am and I should know better than to go knocking on doors of people who won’t treat me with the dignity and respect I feel that I have earned and more importantly deserve.
May 16th, 2006 at 2:15 pm
TG you have hit upon a problem that will plague you endlessly. Regardless of your level of observance you won’t be considered fully Jewish by chabad unless you undergo a conversion under their auspices. Haredim would feel the same way I suppose. The problem isn’t you- its that as Jews we’ve allowed our tendency toward factionalism to destroy the sense of the community among us. I’m sorry my friend- this was a tough experience for you and I wish there was some way to make it better. But I’m glad the guy was more or less polite about things. The good news is that your kids will one day not have to answer any questions about this- I hope.
May 16th, 2006 at 2:18 pm
Sorry bout that first one -
I think I’ve just made a decision that I’m not going to be participating in things and or places that ultimately will not accept me as I am now.
Welcome to the club, good sir. Welcome to the club.
May 16th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
(argh! typed a full comment and it went poof!)
Take two:
First, I did not take what you said hard or wrong in the least. Your points are clear and valid. You almost always make yourself beyond clear, that’s why I like ya (well-just one of the reasons), you’re a communicator.
You are absolutely correct in stating that I really can’t understand what it’s like to walk in your shoes. Not only am I a Jew, but I’m an American, and not just American, but a Southern Californian…a species all our own. And you, you’re Canadian.
I understand your point. I am definitely ‘judged’ less harshly for my Jewish actions because I have the bloodline. It’s silly and as you know, in my eyes, not fair. If a person’s level of spirituality, committment to learning, knowledge, faith in the Jewish people and the community are sincere, then there should be no question. Unfortunately, Judaism is split so many ways that we, a people who has fought everyone for thousands of years, are now, perhaps more than ever, fighting ourselves. Quite sad but true.
I do have to say though, that there are some groups of more observant Jews who see me as less than or perhaps, not “really” Jewish. Maybe because I’m a lost cause with tattoos
It’s very clear to me and everyone, I’m convinced, who reads your blog, that you or MORE than okay with who you are. I just hope that if, perchance someday, you end up in my neighborhood, that we can spend a Shabbos with my peeps, comfortably. Of course, I understand why that becomes an issue. Yet another bump to get over when we travel that path.
Oh, and by the way, we’re dating?
I can deal with that terminology. I’d embrace it even more when we meet. 
OY Internet interactions.
May 16th, 2006 at 2:42 pm
Amishav,
The only way his kids won’t have a problem with this is if he marries a woman who is Jewish by everyone’s standards.
TG,
The conflicts you’re facing are coming from the point of view that most Reform conversions aren’t done according to the requirements of Jewish law, and thus they (each considered on an individual basis) are not valid. On another note, choosing to be Jewish isn’t like choosing to be a vegetarian. The conversion process is probably the most important thing to do properly and strictly (even if you have to do it over again if your original conversion wasn’t kosher), and most Reform Jews don’t know the law or even think it has any validity and are not a reliable source for conversion. As a Jew (or as a neophyte), playing sides with Reform versus Conservative versus Orthodox when it comes to a conversion will only get you in trouble. It’s probably best to do it in a way that nobody will have an issue with your conversion, and then resume living as a Jew according to how you see fit.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:00 pm
I hesitate to join the fray … but what the heck, the worst you can do is … delete me?
I went the Reform route and played around five years as a ‘Reform Jew’ before I came to the conclusion that it might be an easy way to become a Jewish Protestant but it was not authentic Judaism (apolagies to anyone who vehemently disagrees).
Eventually I converted according to the customs and traditions that make Judaism what it is, and what attracted me. Living here in Israel I rarely meet “Reform converts” but when I do my heart goes out to them. They are so well intended and so poorly served by their leadership.
I wish you well, but sincerely suggest you rethink your decision to “convert”. Better to be a righteous gentile steeped in Jewish learning than to play around the edges of a deep rich millenium old tradition that demands total commitment.
Your Reader from Shilo, Benyamin
Yoel Ben-Avraham
May 16th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
To Ami
Thanks a lot for posting in your normal and supportive fashion. However, please let me assure you that I’m not hurt or wounded by this in the least. If anything it was more an illumination so to speak. Kind of like when you connect the fact that sticking a finger into an electric socket leads to getting zapped.
I’ve studied with Chabad here and in many ways, I don’t really feel like I’m missing a whole bunch and after all, like I said, I didn’t read the fine print and I assumed that this Jnet was something other than what it is.
To Tamara
Thanks again for posting I am glad you understand me, not that I had any doubt.
To Robbie
Thanks for the warm and heartfelt welcome, but now a question for you.
Tell me more about this club, and does membership have privileges?
I’m familiar with this club (www.hairclub.com), but I suppose the one you’re referring to is in connected to it, I’m just not that lucky.
To Yoel Ben-Avraham
I certainly would not delete your posts I’ve read your blog and I find you to be a kind and sincere man. More importantly, I find you to be earnest in your dedication to what you believe and know to be the truth.
Having said that, you realize that I don’t share your understanding and take on things and I of course ask that you respect that fact and I have no doubt that even if it’s with a heavy heart, you can and will accord me that courtesy.
I am always open to dialogue, how ever, there are times and places when maybe it is best to simply agree to disagree and to at least tolerate, if unable to respect differences.
I certainly do not want to give off the impression that this blog or the post you are commenting on was intended to argue or debate the validity or lack thereof of a Reform conversion.
It is simply a place for me to process, reflect and grow and if I’m lucky to connect, share with and learn from others in a compassionate and kind away.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:49 pm
Membership does, indeed have its priveleges.
I’ll figure ‘em out eventually. In the mean time, we made jackets.
May 17th, 2006 at 2:07 am
You know TG, Unfortunately you’ll be getting this grief over conversion for the rest of your days. You are to be commended for being fairly calm about it too. But of course some people will not recognize it. Some say it does not make you a ‘real’ Jew. Besides being very divisive, and generally unneeded & unnecessary, this is not at all uncommon for many small exclusive social groups. It’s called ‘boundry maintenance.
As in: ‘You cant be a member of this Country Club w/o a 20K membership fee & 4K for upkeep every year’! (Yeah, it’s a cheap club). ‘You’re not a ‘real’ scientist if you study sex/baboons/ or baboons being sexual!’ This general behavior and culture can and has created dangerous schisms; think Shia vs. Sunni or even Protestant vs Catholic. Happily for the last few 100 years Jews would rather mostly argue the point than fight it out for supremacy. (I said mostly here as a qualifier).
Unfortunately the issue seemingly will always be with us, and bullies of one sort or another will insist that it’s ‘Our way or no way’. There’s some utility to this, and it gives these intransigent groups a leg up on their ‘opposition’ or ‘competitors’. But there’s always a cost in proclaiming that about half of the people who may call them selves ‘Jews’ as ‘non Jews’. That gets aired out regularly in publications across the decades. In a small, mostly insular group if you divide your brethren in order to ‘conquer’, you’re eventually going to PO more people than you have inside your tent. And if other people from the outside are regularly lobbing bombs & rockets on your tent because of their hostility to the entire tribe, this begins to look really, really stupid. Long term, short term, any way you slice it. So we’ve finally learned to be a bit more polite about it over the phone. We can all be thankful for small miracles. Cheers & Good Luck! ‘VJ’
May 17th, 2006 at 8:25 am
TG: can you explain the differences in the Reform conversion and the Orthodox conversion? Can I read somewhere why you chose the Reform conversion?
I am sorry you have to go through this and if you look at individuals like you it doesn´s seem fair at all and doesn´t make any sense. But I know other cases, in Hungary, where a Reform conversion takes about 10 days and that´s it. Often women do it just before giving birth to a child they are expecting with a Jewish man, so the kid will be Jewish.
Just curious about your reasons to chose Reform and not Orthodox as I think you must have known from the beginning that these obstacles lay in the way, or?
May 17th, 2006 at 9:09 am
To VJ
I really like your comment about the tent and I’m paraphrasing here, but basically how you seem to be inferring that it’s rather silly and ridiculous considering there are truly more important things to deal with in terms of other people lobbing bombs and rockets at all of us.
Also to be honest I don’t see this being a big deal because the Orthodox are in the minority at least in terms of the Western world and so there should be plenty of room for me to maneuver and engage in living life Jewishly without running into this too often.
Again just let me state that I pretty much did this to myself. I should’ve read the fine print in that I would’ve known that this Jnet was a Chabad initiative. I must admit that I’m certainly uncomfortable with some of what Chabad does, I mean, if you look at this web site, it looks modern and progressive, the woman looks extremely secular, and I find it misleading but I suppose that’s neither here nor there.
Thanks again for posting kind sir.
To Mia
Thanks for visiting and posting on the blog.
Why did I choose a Reform conversion? Well I think it has to do with not rejecting and isolating from the Gentile world. Also, I’m a liberal by nature, and I value my God-given intellect and ability to use rational thinking and within the context of Judaism I feel that this is best served through a Reform community. Of course there are downfalls and limitations to practicing from within a Reform context but as I’ve previously stated, there are equally limitations in working from an Orthodox perspective.
I suppose, ultimately, it’s a simple case that I’m not prepared to sacrifice the social strives that humanity is made in the last 200 years including fumbling into some form of democracy and the notion of egalitarian communities.
As for my conversion, I assure you it’s no 10-day thing. It has taken me personally a year and a half of independent and guided study to get to where I am now. However in general, I think conversions take approximately a year under the guidance of a rabbi, along with organized and structured study.
Here is the basic breakdown of my Reform conversion (as done at our shul).
1) A fall of regular courses on a variety of topics related to Judaism. These are preparatory courses to help provide people with a bit of information about Judaism as well as to help them clarify whether or not pursuing conversion is the right thing for them to do.
Once this series of personal interest courses concludes those who are interested in pursuing conversion or more in depth study are offered an opportunity to participate in what’s called an introduction to Judaism (nov through may) course, this includes structured study not only on topics related to Judaism but also successful completion of an intro to Hebrew course. Also as part of this introduction to Judaism program multiple book reports and projects are required.
Oh, and although this is unofficial integration into temple life is strongly encouraged, and I’m positive that people are paying attention to see who was showing up to services or participating in Talmud or Torah study, as well as other courses and lectures being offered. I suppose the point behind this is to see if people are serious about integrating into community life and living Jewishly as opposed to purely academic or educational interest.
Once the courses been completed, candidates who successfully demonstrated a commitment via completing assignments, showing serious commitment to learning about Judaism and Hebrew and are to some level actively involved in Temple life are invited to do what’s called a take-home exam.
This take-home exam (which you can see my answers to, in several posts over the last week or two) is more or less a general overview of what was learned throughout the year and how that impacts us and our move towards conversion. I’m certainly taking it at an undergrad university level in terms of effort and quality.
Once the exam is done, the rabbi and outreach coordinator (I suppose but I’m not positive on this) get together to discuss participants replies and to make sure that there are no outstanding concerns regarding the candidate. Barring any concerns, candidates are then invited to meet with the bet din for an interview and I suppose to have them decide whether or not, we are going to be accepted into the community as Jews. Incidentally the bet din is made up of three individuals who are in good standing and considered to be role models of our local temple.
Assuming things are “kosher” in my case, I will be told, I’ve been accepted, and it’s on to the last two phases of the process.
Ritual circumcision in my case (thank God, and for the record, I figure anyone who has to go through a full circumcision should be exempt from any take-home exams, lol jk).
once that is done it’s time to head down to the JCC for immersion in the Mikvah of course following proper rituals and with appropriate witness.
After this I believe that there’s a public affirming ceremony, which most likely is optional. And of course, this probably varies from community to community.
I should probably also mention that people have dropped out and people have been told that the rabbi was not prepared to support them in the conversion process at this time. He certainly doesn’t make it easy for people and he has in fact made several people cry and become rather upset over the course of the year.
Speaking personally, he had me in such a tailspin this past December and January that I seriously considered dropping out. He may be the exception to the rule, although I doubt it but he seriously challenges and forces us to question ourselves and our motivations on an ongoing basis. And I found him to be very thorough, of course from a reform perspective.
As for what is the difference between a reform and Orthodox conversion I will let you research that for yourself, but I think you get a sense of what the reform end of things are at least in my experience at my temple.
Lastly to answer your question about I must’ve known there would be problems. Yes I did, and again, I don’t see it being a problem most of the time because I’m not trying to get people to accept me as a Jew who aren’t going to. I am however strong enough to stand up for myself and say yes your prospective is fine and yes it’s valid from your point of view, however, unless I’m in your home, I don’t really care and keep it to yourself. And if you don’t, well then expect me to push back. It’s a simple question of decency and mutual respect.
Anyhow thanks for posting and I hope I was able to answer your questions.
May 17th, 2006 at 10:20 am
Speaking from the heart and not from a biased perspective…
When I first started communicating with TikkunGer, one of the first things I asked him was “Why not just do a “full” conversion, you’re already more than half way there”. Needless to say, when we met via our blogs, it was based on quite differing opinions on conversion. There was much disagreement and heated conversation on the topic. The only thing is, I was quite ignorant as to why I felt he should do a “full” (orthodox) conversion. In my eyes, based largely on my interactions with many in the more observant communities, I thought an Ortho conversion was the only way.
However, as I started getting to know this man, it became quite evident and clear to me that not only were his motivations for the conversion process, his committment, passion, faith, and truth pure, he KNEW why he chose this type of conversion. He made it quite clear that this was not a Las Vegas style drive through conversion (oh…in LV you can get married, literally, through drive through chapels).
Now, after hours and hours of communication, my own point of view and understanding on the whole process has changed. I can fully respect any person’s conversion based on what they, on a personal level, do towards their conversion. I understand the “law” so to speak; however, if a person has done the studying, the learning, the embracing of the peoplehood…that speaks volumes as opposed to pretending you are more observant than you are. Besides, G-d knows what is what. For example, it was suggested, more than once, by people commenting here and people in my own personal life, that TG should just do the Ortho conversion; and then go to practicing whatever form of Judaism he chose afterwards. This would be untruthful and a farce. How can you go through an ortho conversion by lying to the rabbi and beis din that you intend on keeping kashrut, shomer shabbos, etc. Entering into Judaism this way is for sure sinful, IMHO.
And so, why am I commenting so long (besides the fact that I can and I type super fast)? Because I just want to say I think this man has gone about it in all the right ways for where he is in his life. I know few Jews who are this committed. Not that my opinion weighs strongly one way or the other…I just wanted to say it.
May 17th, 2006 at 1:48 pm
Wow Tamara your post is amazing and you blew me away.
That really means a lot coming from you and I’m not going to spoil this with too many words, other than to say thanks so much.
May 17th, 2006 at 3:10 pm
TG: Awww, you’re more than welcome. If anything, I owe you the thanks, for helping me see SO many things with new eyes and a loving heart, in just a short time.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:38 pm
Dear TG,
Thanks so much for your very thorough and informative response. It was more than I would ever have expected and I really appreciate the insight. As Tam I was very ignorant and thought the ortho way is the only way. Maybe its because the community in Switzerland is Ortho and does not accept marriage with a Reform. We do have a Reform Shul and I have friends who went there, but personally I never did, knowing that there is an organ in it was enough for me to stay away. I want to be honest and mention here that I don´t keep kosher outside my home and am not keeping Shabbos. So I feel pretty ashamed of thinking this way all my life.
Just on a side note. In Stockholm the Synagogue is mixed Reform and Ortho. It´s a pretty large Shul, in the middle women and men sit mixed, some with Kippot and Talliot, some without, on the right side only men, on the left only woman. Girls have a Bat-Mitzah with reading from the Torah like Boys on their Bar-Mitzwah and they even have an organ. I was shocked and positively surprised the first time we went there (My husband is Swedish). Now I really appreciate it, I think it is great how different observance levels can come together and respect each other.
Thanks again for your response and your very honest answers. I truly appreciate it.
I am so happy you and Tam found each other and I wish you the greatest life together. Long distance can work for a certain period of time. We did it for 12 month, different countries, 8 hours travel each way! So, I am sure the two of you will make it just as a success as we did! From my heart all the best!
Mia
May 18th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
Wow Mia–
That shul sounds absolutely amazing. And beautiful that the two CAN and DO come together. The Jewish world at large can learn a lot from them I’m thinking.
Thank you for the kind wishes. Ummmm, wishing us a great life threw me off. How about wishing us just a good first meeting
LOL
May 24th, 2006 at 9:26 pm
Interesting tags on this post… Just a few random thoughts:
1) I ‘converted’ Reform 2 years ago (I had been involved with Reform Judaism for 8 years prior to that, but was not able to convert; being I was a minor) and I’m now in the process of an Orthodox conversion. I basically decided to leave Reform immediately upon leaving the mikveh. I had committed to the Reform course, but late in the game started to doubt it; but not enough to call it quits. But anyway, that is beside the point. I know what you probablly think; that I will also knock your choice of spirituality. Not really. What I must disclose however is that most Orthodox Jews are not ‘anti-Reform’; they see Reform Jews as their brethern. If the most secular of Reform Jews come to Orthodox Jews for help they will not turn them away (nor will they turn a Gentile away!). What makes the situation heartbreaking is the difference in how the two groups define Judaism. The statement that “Reform converts are not seen as ‘real’ Jews” leaves out a lot of the story. It’s sort of like saying “Islam encourages terrorism”. Orthodox Jews will fully accept a Reform ‘convert’ who accepts the same definition of Judaism that they do. This could mean that they remain a Noahide and not be responsible for keeping all of the mitzvot or they can convert to become “Jewish” and live just like they do. Those are the two states of being. Sure they will not allow you to study Talmud, prepare their dinners, or marry their children. Nor would they let a born Jew do so (unless they were seriously considering becoming observant as well). Also Orthodox Jewry sees no fault in not being like them. But like 90% of humans alive, the do get miffed when subjected to criticism for what they believe strongly in.
2) In regards to the comment that VJ made, I sort of scratch my head at the response, “As a Reform convert, you’ll always catch grief”. I know of quite a few Reform converts who are living in bliss; married to other Jews; active in their religious community; etc. Perhaps in Israel, it’s a different story since religion & state are sort of intertwined. But in America/Canada, the non-Orthodox Jewish community is sizeable and powerful. Rather or not I agree with the validity of their belief system is just how I feel. I’m a firm believer that this is a free society (US/Canada) and you should live life as you see fit; as long as you are not hurting others. To suggest that you should convert via Orthodox auspices just to suit my standards (or the standards of the Orthodox community) with no regard to your personal comfort is wrong. I will also freely admit that since you are a man, it’s of even less consequence. As long as you don’t try to complete a minyan in an Orthodox shul, what harm could it do? According to halacha, the status of your children is not dependent on you. If you’re children decide that they want to become Orthodox Jews, I’m sure you will support them; perhaps even more so than some born Reform Jews.
3) The Orthodox Jewish world is actually pretty diverse; in just about every aspect. I too am a liberal politically. While it is true, many of the liberal Orthodox Jews are from the 60s/70s camp of social progress (so yes, they are 50+), they are around. As a Black women I used to be scared stiff of walking into an Orthodox shul and “sticking out”. It true that I can count on one hand the Black Orthodox Jews I know of in Miami, they do exist. And if I include Asians, Hispanics, and Middle Eastern/dark-skinned Sephardics I will quickly run out of fingers and toes. I do not attend a Chabad shul, but in my experience Chabad is very accepting. They really have to be since they reach out to assimilated Jews who 8 times out of 10 have a non-Jewish significant other. I’m also a bit puzzled by the “secular look” reference. What may that be? If my memory serves me correctly, the women on Chabad’s site are dressed in modest attire (long sleeves, non-flashy/compromising poses) and would not look out of place in my Hareidi/Yeshivish synagogue. How ’should’ a religious Jewish woman look? I myself shop in the same K-Mart, Macy’s, Newport News, Ann Taylor, etc. that my non-religious, non-Jewish female friends do. I just don’t buy the pants, the plunging necklines, or the skin tight items. Again, I guess you would have to see the diversity present within the Orthodox community to believe it. For example, the majority of women in my synagogue wear wigs (yes some of them, you can tell, but quite a few women have wigs you would never guess are not their real hair). But a married friend of mine doesn’t own a wig and instead wears velvet Kangols, lined crocheted berets, and colorful sunhats; all that look like they were featured in last month’s Cosmopolitian mag. The only difference between she and the models (and believe me, with her face, she definitely could have been model material), is that she pulls her hair into the hat where the models will let theirs swing free. There is also another woman in my community who used to be a soap opera actress (in the 80s) who also looks like she stepped out of a magazine.
Wow, I apologize for leaving a comment that rivals a post in itself. I also don’t mean to criticize you or make you feel bad in any way. I do not know what your community is like; I can only talk about mine. I am sure that you feel completely fulfilled on your current path and that’s wonderful. I also feel incredibly fulfilled on the path that I’ve taken and I thank G-d for that…
Stay with the idea of having an open-mind. Just remember that the moment you start believing that your approach is the only open-minded approach than you defeat the whole purpose!
May 24th, 2006 at 9:32 pm
Nor would they let a born Jew do so (unless they were seriously considering becoming observant as well)
Typo! That should read “born Reform Jew”….
And as a footnote to that, the Orthodox actually would see a born Reform Jew in greater consequence than a Reform convert; since they will see them as being a Jew not fulfilling their full potential as oppossed to a gentile being a good Noahide!
May 30th, 2006 at 11:25 am
Interesting comments from Rishona. I appreciate her sharing. I also like how you changed the comments on your homepage so it says who left a comment and on which post. I think before it didn’t list the person’s name.
May 30th, 2006 at 12:14 pm
Hi Rishona
Thanks for commenting in sorry for my delay in replying to it, I just got sidetracked and forgot all about it.
First off, you certainly have not offended or made me feel bad in any way but I’m sort of off the topic now and don’t really have any interest in reviving it so I’m going to leave things at that.
However, I do appreciate you taking the time to write an in depth and thoughtful comment on the topic and do appreciate your thoughts and feedback.
Hi Tamara
Yes the comments are new actually the entire blog is new although you probably can’t tell just by looking. I updated to the version 2 of the theme because it had what’s called widget supports, which by the way is absolutely amazing stuff.
September 19th, 2007 at 9:37 pm
I realize this is an old post, but something very similar just happened to me. Just wanted to say “thank you.”
I’m in the process of a Reform conversion and was trying to line up a last-minute Kol Nidre service. I guess I should have known that Chai Center was Chabad, and that’s my bad. But the service was advertised as a “newbie” type thing, so it looked perfect. Anyway, I e-mailed the Rabbi to ask about attendance details–and I was very straightforward about my Reform conversion.
Thanks to the wonder of e-mail, I received a polite but clearly worded response: this service is reserved for Jews only. They would have no problem with me if I had a kosher conversion. He said he appreciated that I would respect this, and would welcome me with open arms if I had a proper conversion.
While I am not surprised by this, it’s just my first “real” encounter with the whole you-won’t-really-be-a-Jew thing.
April 11th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
It is interesting that anyone would base their validation of being a Jew from any orthodox sect. Do any Protestant Christians ask the Catholics do you recognize me? The reform movement is called reform precisely for that reason. The orthodox stance on who is a Jew is to narrow and prevents Jewish souls from returning to Judaism. Orthodox Judaism can have its narrow interpretation all it wants. It is however a fact that pre- Christian Jews proselytized to many nations. It is estimated that before destruction of the Second temple 10% of Roman empires population was Jewish. I reform movement anyone who says they are a Jew is a Jew. You are a Jew in the fullest sense.
July 2nd, 2008 at 6:47 pm
In some ways my life would have been easier if I had your problem, and not the one I have.
My mother (born Catholic) married my (born) Jewish father in a civil union, and then, years later, decided on her own to convert to (Orthodox) Judaism. My dad had to “go along for the ride” (become frum), something he was not happy about at first.
The problem is, I was 18 months old when she converted. The rabbi converted me also. So where is the problem?
When I was about 5, my folks’ apartment had a fire and the conversion documents were lost in that fire. The rabbi had since died, and the only proof my mother had of her conversion is her kesubah (after all, no Orthodox rabbi would officiate at a marriage between a Jew and a Gentile…certainly not back then).
So while I have proof my mother was Jewish, I have none that I am. The only proof went up in flames when I was a little kid.
I’ve hidden this problem all my life, and fortunately it never arose as a problem. Anytime anyone asked me, “Are you Jewish?’ of course my reply is YES. If anyone were to ask if my mother was Jewish, the answer of course is YES.